logs archiveBotHelp.net / Freenode / #1gam / 2015 / July / 20 / 2
MrJones
as far as I'm aware
oh wait, it was like this if I recall:
it does use true hardware threads, and as long as your computation main work happens in helper libs, the GIL doesn't have too much impact
since it only blocks parallel computations in your python code, but if your python code mainly is I/O waiting for the result from the helper lib for the maths stuff, it's not that much of a problem
anyway
I haven't written a large game in python
texom512
MrJones: The graphics of Panda3D and Soya 3D aren't good. Agree to you? Sorry for my grammar, correct me please, I'm swiss and I speak in french...
MrJones
however, EVE is written in python isn't it? dunno if their interpreter has a GIL though, they used some different one
texom512: no I don't. did you even read what I said?
I explained that panda3d has a lack of recent screenshots. if you want to see what it can actually do, check out tobspr's work.
panda3d's main problem really is that nobody heard of it
texom512
MrJones: I'm sure I saw your name somewhere, are you never participate in a game jam?
MrJones
and nobody realizes that it's actually a quite decent engine
enleeten: anyway, I'll never say python isn't quite slow :D
but usually AI mainly suffers with bad algorithms these days
CPUs are quick enough to do some more AI computations in a slower scripting language each frame, unless you are an AAAA game where you need to spend a lot of time on the rendering because it looks like a goddamn photo
but if your AI algorithm scales horribly with more participants or something, it'll of course run like sh*t with a busy map
texom512: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHBLPNNjkrg this is done with panda3d
although the guy uses some custom framework on top, but that one is also fully open-source and he's constantly in talk with panda3d devs to advance both projects and eventually all those effects might be in panda3d per default
so maybe it's not possible to do that in one day, but if you know what you're doing it can certainly be odne..
if you want amazing graphics while doing not much work for it, you'd want to use Unreal Engine 4 anyway
ExpiredPopsicle
Well, you still have to do art to go with the fancy engine.
MrJones
enleeten: I hope I didn't talk you to death :) I will stop bringing forward more arguments xD again yes python is slow... I just *personally believe* that it's not a huge problem. (due ot reasons above) but I might be wrong of course
I'm not an expert on complicated AI or anything :D although I do know quite some things about it due to studying comp-sci (that's not so much practical implementation tho)
ExpiredPopsicle: yea, people are always "OMG THAT ENGINE LOOKS AMAZING !!" when often it's just a capable artist who made that happen
and panda3d has screenshots with just outdated or sh*tty art
sadly
also in part because it's not really popular, so no dev team who ever made any notably looking game has used it
ExpiredPopsicle
Well, good tools and good artists go together.
MrJones
except disney but that was some time ago and they used very simple graphics
ExpiredPopsicle: sure, but good tools alone doesn't bring in the artists :D
ExpiredPopsicle
I have seen great artists hindered by terrible tools.
MrJones
true
well almost all 3d open-source engines have one big common problem
(includes ogre3d and panda3d)
they have no easy scene editor usually
or just sh*tty ones
all commercial ones like unity and unreal 4 have them, and that simply speeds up work a lot
but that's not really panda3d's specific fault, that's more a general problem of all open-source engines at this point
they should probably unite and write one
like tiled / mapeditor.org for 2d which is a semi-standard nowadays
(almost everyone doing love2d/XNA/MonoGame 2d games uses it)
I mean there's GtkRadiant/NetRadiant/<insert more forks here>, but who still uses BSP maps these days
also last time I tried to use it, I found the interface horrible
ExpiredPopsicle
Radiant is a pretty dated editor.
MrJones
yea... good would be something like bethesda's construction kit thing
texom512
MrJones: I saw the video. Ok, you were right (correct if I make mistakes), Panda3D has good grafics
MrJones
which is purely placing models in a scene
ExpiredPopsicle
Most of the 3D tools I've used in the last few years have been just placing models in a scene.
MrJones
I suppose unity's editor is similar
yea
ExpiredPopsicle
BSP-like stuff still lingers around as a prototyping/whitebox tool.
MrJones
UE4 still does brushes and such, but I doubt it still uses the old BSP culling algorithm (or if it does, then heavily modified)
ExpiredPopsicle
But I don't think it's even really making BSP trees in, for example, UE4.
They just call it BSP tools.
MrJones
and of course it also allows models
yea I doubt UE4 still uses BSP internally
source 1 engine apparently still does
dunno about source 2
but it's also infamous for problems with the level editor due to that
like display errors in the game with certain complicated intersections and other crap
enleeten
MrJones: no sorry got pulled away
texom512
It's not normal what the screenshot are outdated. It's a big problem, the website must be represent at best the motor...
MrJones
enleeten: np
yea the panda3d website is sh*t
enleeten
BSP is still a valid acceleration structure
MrJones
also half the forum is discussing toontown, which is kinda confusing and annoying
enleeten
it's just sorting things into two sides for faster traversal later
MrJones
maybe, but isn't the geometry quite limiting? that is why I doubt UE4 still uses it
they might be, I don't know
enleeten
you could use a higher order structure, like say an octree
MrJones
maybe they use some combination of basic BSP culling with the brushes, then some other sort of culling for the highres detail models
enleeten
which divides things into 8 sections
MrJones
I dunno
enleeten
instead of 2
ExpiredPopsicle
What culling method does UE4 even use?
MrJones
but at least it works a lot better than old BSP-only engines
I never had map compilation issues with unreal
enleeten
ExpiredPopsicle: probably many
MrJones
ExpiredPopsicle: I would bet a combination of many
enleeten
the source is available to everyone now, so you can go look if you want
MrJones
anyway, for indie games IMHO culling is not that important nowadays
Blackside
i kinda always liked the workflow of the good old hammer editor
MrJones
most 3d indie games have slightly simplistic graphics compared to a blockbuster game anyway
so it's ok if they run a bit suboptimally
(which is also why I don't mind python & panda3d for games - of course for a call of duty graphics-level game that's a different story)
but the lack of a decent generic editor is a real problem
for the open-source ones that is.
texom512
MrJones: I'm sure I saw your name somewhere, are you never participate in a game jam? (I ask the question again)
MrJones
that is why everyone is using unity I guess. that easy to use editor is just a very good reason to use it
texom512: nope
Blackside
yes.. but for 2d i don't like using unity
ExpiredPopsicle
I've used Blender as a 3D editor in the past, with a script to export a custom scene definition.
Blackside
doesn't Blender also have a game engine embedded?
texom512
"that is why everyone is using unity I guess." I don't understand why, can you explain agai?
MrJones
ExpiredPopsicle: I tried to use blender for level editing, but for me it's waaay too slow in a way
texom512
"yes.. but for 2d i don't like using unity" +1 I prefer Python for 2D
ExpiredPopsicle
I don't like Blender's game engine.
MrJones
like, just the workflow
I bet if you're a blender expert it's okay
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