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fseesink
JR^: Hey&well, its actually not a support type question, but something directed at them specficially. I see pyite in the list, but I know hes often quite busy. Was hoping to bend their ear on something.
JR^
well if it's something specific to only 2600hz, I encourage you to shoot an e-mail to sales@2600hz.com or support@2600hz.com depending on the question
if not just ask it here and someone will answer eventually
fseesink
But fine. Here it is: if 2600hz supported Cisco handsets with Kazoo, such as the 8800 SIP-based units that are their new enterprise series and ideally the older 7900 series (they share the same boot process involving TFTP servers/etc.), theyd have a shot at enterprise businesses that are looking to move away from CUCM but are pretty much locked in due to the investment in handsets.
For those who know, the real hook in Ciscos business is that once you commit to their setup and get their phones, thats a large pressure point to keep on CUCM. But the new 8800 series specifically are SIP ONLY, and the legacy 7900 series that had either SCCP or SIP firmware (you ran one or the other, not both) are pretty much OELd even by Cisco now. So they clearly acknowledge SIP over their proprietary SCCP.
Ive tried Googling and seeing if anyone has ever gotten an 8800 series like the 8851 to work with Kazoo, but so far closest I found was chatting with neurosys here, who bought one and began testing but hit some speedbumps.
So far from what I can tell, most users of Kazoo, whether as a hosted platform by 2600hz or self-hosting, are targeting small customers& the SMB market if you will. But the enterprise I suspect largely has been ignored. Dont get me wrong. I know Kazoo can scale to handle a lot of customers/endpoints, and Im sure some deployments do in the aggregate, but overall I suspect the individual customers are rather small. Basically targeting th
same folks who might buy Packet8/8x8, Xblue, and the like. No on-prem SBC setup by default, meaning no 911 failover to an analog line (or SRST mode in Cisco speak). And basically lacking the features that the enterrpise would demand.
And by enterprise I would refer to such places as higher ed. institutions, state agencies, corporations. As an example, I work by day in effectively a state agency that falls under higher ed., providing ISP/datacenter services to everything from K-12, higher ed, to local/county/state govt. And I dont see any of those shy a few small local govt entities considering going with a hosted Kazoo setup. Not becasue it wouldnt serve t
needs, but because they need things like proper 911 failover should the SIP trunks be down, and most importantly, because many of them would be coming from a Cisco CallManager environment where they have a capital investment in handsets.
pyite knows this story. I tried to get 2600hz to bid on a project awhile back, but due to various things, it all fell through. End result is that the entity in question went with Verizons UCCaaS service, which is basically Cisco CallManager in the cloud. Only Verizon pimped the product as a multi-tenant solution, and for those who dont know, CallManager isnt. I tried to warn folks, but I lost the argument.
So now were in the midst of this, with the client spending a large chunk of change to buy Cisco 8800 phones to go with this setup. Only everything I warned about (and to their credit, Verizon even exceeded my expectations on that front which is saying something) has come to pass. And if this keeps up, its quite possible they will want to walk away from UCCaaS. (Theyre sure feeling amenable to the idea right about now.) But with that
recent investment in Cisco SIP phones, guess what their options are right now? Yep, on-prem CUCM vs. cloud-based. Thats it. But if there was the option to go to Kazoo without having to rebuy all the phones, well then&
saratogga
fseesink: how many seats in this particular place you're talking about?
fseesink
Actually 2 places (hence the frustration due to lack of true multi-tenancy)& ~70 at our location, and > 100 at the other. And thats just who was swung over now. The idea was that wed onboard other places like community colleges/etc. in time (there are 1 or 2 on the UCCaaS platform that they talked about swinging on to our cluster when this conversation started). But the fact we cant keep 2 entities separate pretty much means th
whole model of acting a bit like a Kazoo cluster is out the window. (Again, its a very long story told mutliple times, but I tried warning folks.)
saratogga
70 is hardly enterprise-level
fseesink
Throw in that this solution is offered as a state contract, meaning it has a limited life if not renewed (currently set to expire before end of next year). And with issues that have been occurring, theres been rumblings about folks wanting out, about not renewing, etc. Which means things might be ripe for the picking here in the near future. But I know the entity in question is gonna balk if theyre told they have to buy brand new phones
AGAIN, even if they are 1/2 the price of the ones they just bought. (We cant recoup that cost, as state law doesnt allow reselling used gear& it has to be surplused, meaning the agency who does that doesnt get a nickel back.)
saratogga
what is the price of what they just bought?
fseesink
saratogga: Not sure how big a customer you have, and by customer I mean a single end client, but those are numbers you dont see having phone systems that dont have 911 failover. Thats a lawsuit waiting to happen.
saratogga: be more specific. price of what? UCCaaS itself is a subscription service, where you pay $/mo/device at different tiers depending on whehter you want basic (public areas), enhanced (voicemail), or extras like presence, mobility, etc. That cost depends on tier. As for phones, 8851s here can be bought off a state contract called PEPPM, and the price is something like $374/phone for an 8851 last I looked.
So problem is customer spent ~$40K on handsets. This may not seem like much depending where youre from, but here its serious coin. And with no private sector ability to recoup by reselling on eBay or whatnot, thats money down the drain if they have to buy new handsets& and not something they can afford.
If 2600hz supported 8851s on the Kazoo platform, I could toss that out as an option. Whether they chose to go hosted with 2600hz or, barring that 2600hz doesnt want to do on-prem SBC type setups with 911 failover, then maybe wed spin up a cluster (we have 2 datacenters in different parts of the state) and pay 2600hz for support, doing the client setups with SBCs ourselves. But itd give an opportunity to 2600hz vs. having to go CUCM.
Necroman
uhh
I don't use cisco for phones thay give me trouble too
fseesink
saratogga: You need to know Im a big fan of 2600hz and what theyre doing. I tried to get them in the door last go round, but they dropped the ball and missed the bid deadline, which unfortunately is it when it comes to state bids. And yes, Ill still pitch them as an alternative if/when the opportunity arises. I just know that the friction level is gonna be very high if doing so means buying brand new phones just a year after doing so
already.
Necroman: No argument. If I could have convinved folks not to go down this damn rabbit hole to begin with& well, lets just stay I tried& and tried& and tried. For well over 6 months. But I lost that battle. To an extent it was the Cisco equivalent of No one ever got fired for buying Big Blue. But regardless, decision was made, and at that point phones got ordered. So now here we are. Thats my whole point. If Kazoo could
support them (not saying recommend them), then you lower the barrier for those in similar situations.
Like it or not, your executive types sometimes want that label on their handsets. And they could care less if it was a hamster in a spinning wheel running the PBX itself, as no one sees that.
jde|office
Thanks network TV.
I swear to god I see those cisco handsets on every stupid tv show set ever
as a phone guy it honestly kind of drives me crazy. Sometimes the logos are covered but sometimes they aren't, I'm sure there's some cisco kickback involved there
fseesink
Im just trying to get at that backend. I mean, 2600hz doesnt have a stake in handsets. Theyre not Aastra/Mitel or Shoretel. They sell the backend. Add support for more handsets, and you have a shot at replacing that backend. Do that, and then customers can age out the Cisco phones for others.
jde|office: True dat.
jde|office
There was a time for a while where every customer of mine wanted the ringtone from 24.
fseesink
jde|office: HA! I had that, too.
Truth is, I wouldnt be asking/pushing for this if I didnt like Kazoo. But I do. And this is someone who has worked on CUCM for the past& geez& 6-7 years. Sorry, but the admin UI for CUCM blows. And its just way too convoluted for organizations of this size. I have always said CUCM is great when youre of a size like a university with 1000+ endpoints, where you run a proper cluster, have enough demand that you have a full-time V
guy, etc. But for anything less, its just more work than its worth. I was the VoIP guy, but that was just 5-10% of my job. So I need things to work efficiently. UIs that make sense. Crap thats easy to do and for others to pick up, because we have way too many other things to do.
Necroman
fseesink: I just picked a few models of phones that work well and the rest I could care less. When I come accross those customers I send them brand new phones and say "Your Welcome"
fseesink
Here I see two scenarios. One, 2600hz hosted VoIP service. Pretty much UCCaaS claimed to be, only actually doing it. Here our involvement is as broker but not much else (i.e., my VoIP involvment stays low). Two, higher ups decide its worth the investment, and we go full-bore self-hosting Kazoo (with paid 2600hz support), which means far more commitment on our end BUT it also means were gunning for more customers. But I know that all of
current folks theyve been talking about onboarding are current CUCM users, meaning those darn Cisco phones.
Necroman
Get paid too much using kazoo to worry about a 60 dollar phone.
fseesink
I think if we could swing them over, then show them how much cheaper other SIP handsets are, theyd drop SmartNet support on their Cisco phones, then as the phones die, replace them with something else. (Or maybe keep the Cisco phones just for those too influenced by 24 :-) )
But I know that swinging them over is the rub.
Necroman
F it get another one thats what we do
fseesink
the argment is going to be Dont like UCCaaS? Why not just run CUCM on prem then? Its yours.
and the fact they have those handsets is the pressure point.
Necroman
for you I guess
fseesink
What? No need to buy all new phones."
Necroman
I laugh at the guys\
fseesink
Well, first, you can forget them going for the $60 phones.
Necroman
Yeah We pay for them
the 120 you can pay yourself
lol
fseesink
Most deployments Ive seen are using 6-line Cisco 7961/8851/etc. phones. This means something like a Yealink SIP-T28/29/38G, etc. So phones are a bit more than that.
than $60 that is
Necroman
You can get a t-21 yealink for 60
fseesink
Thats not a 6-line phone.
Necroman
the new gigabit model even
Stuck in TDM?
Yea we buy the good one's for reception etc.
fseesink
6-line appearances. This has been pretty stock in most places. Maybe 4-line appearance phones, but typically nothing less.
Necroman
your worried about supporting cisco too much
I got people using webphones lol
fseesink
Im not worried. Im saying Im stuck supporting Cisco including the backend until I can get that damn thing out, and thats not gonna happen as things stand. And 2600hz is leaving money on the table, which may well be their business model. I just wish theyd have a shot at a part of the market theyre not even part of right now if they did this.
As for webphones, guess what state agenceis have been going to?
Go ahead, work it out.
State govt& are they your typical Linux, OS X types?
Necroman
Well that depends on the encryption not the phone bud.
fseesink
Try again.
Dont overthink it.
Theyre Windows shops. That means MS. That in turn means Lync.
Oh wait& I think its now Skype for Biusiness.
Necroman
Ok , your right they make it their business to listen what did you have in mind?
fseesink
Already said it. Support Cisco enterprise handsets. The latest 8800 series are SIP only so hopefully would be easier than the older 7900s. If they could support both, thatd be awesome. But the 7900s are EOLd by Cisco, meaning theyre not officially supported anymore anyway (though that wont stop them being used for several more years). So even just the 8800s would help tremendously.
that said, I know its not easy.
Necroman
I have never had a problem with kazoo trying to support phones for sip 2.0 sound like a dev issue, should buy one and work out your kinks and contribute!
fseesink
The phones are a bit of a pain with the whole boot process, TFTP server bit going after an XML config file named after their MAC address, etc. neurosys bought one and hit an issue of the phone not liking that the IP of the media server was different than the IP of the SIP server I think (sorry, a bit fuzzy right now).
Necroman
yeah I avoid the TFTP setup, use only HTTP for my devices
fseesink
basically CUCM has two pieces that land on itself with same IP (typical PBX) vs. Kazoo with its cluster setup where FreeSWITCH is on one node, Kamalio is on another, etc. That seemed to be where things were at last I chatted with him.
Necroman
Hope your good with wireshark
fseesink
And since you config things on CUCMs Web UI, it generates the XML config file thats hosted by the TFTP server it has& its all tied together.
Anyway, Im east coast. Gotta bolt before the wife gets mad. Already late for dinner.
Necroman
l8r
fseesink
have a good one.
saratogga
looks like fseesink got it off his chest for a while
anyone has the email for fseesink?
osryan
does anyone know what the way or provider is for connecting a sip trunk to kazoo? i'm really new to this and am struggling to connec to twilio and plivo
nevermind. i got flowroute working now. ended up being pretty easy to set them up as a carrier
Now I am unable to add numbers to Kazoo. I'm in the first admin account in kazoo-ui and the Add Number button is there, but when I click and add new numbers, they don't show up. Anyone run into this?
stormqloud_
make sure to add with a plus
jde_
osryan , I believe it's pointless to add anything under the master account. You need to create a sub-account first and then do everything under there
maybe this has changed recently, I don't know.
I remember I was told as much last year
stormqloud_
jde_: word
jde_
hi there.
I had a question for you I think but its escaping me
not a hard one
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