logs archiveBotHelp.net / Freenode / #2f30 / 2015 / July / 17 / 17
FRIGN
Even though over 95% of the population doesn't support it. What kind of democracy is this?
Just scrap this bullsh*t
kori: Do you really believe that?
Look at Debian. They take years to decide which init-system they use.
k0ga
FRIGN: I would like know the opinion of stateless about this point xD
kori
that's not the point
FRIGN
They waste years discussing a simple point, they should just have a small group of leaders who decide it.
kori
okay let me just say a suggestion
FRIGN
kori: Maybe you could be more specific what you mean exactly
kori
someone with a lot of free time should make a couple blog posts or some videos or something showing why suckless matters
FRIGN
Else you're just wasting our time here :p
kori
and why the software should be used
FRIGN
kori: Addressing whom?
k0ga
Evil_Bob: I think a good idea is to add -Wall and some other stuff in build.sh
FRIGN
Some coder-chick who can press out some Node.JS crap?
Evil_Bob
kori: so you mean marketing? thats different than "user" experience!
kori
the advanced computer user who is balls deep into his software, the common user, the noob who is starting to learn (this guy is special)
k0ga
-Wall but removing for example && || warnings
Evil_Bob
you can make crappy software but have great marketing ;)
kori
Evil_Bob: marketing touches user experience
FRIGN
kori: it takes a lot of effort to guide people as a scholar
Like, we have some apprentices here
kori
in regards to user experience I should say using suckless software right now isn't exactly intuitive but that's a whole another problem for another day
FRIGN
but it is a lot of work. Do you really think we want to have dozens of people lurking here or in #suckless starting discussions about topics they do not understand?
Evil_Bob
k0ga: yea definitely, myself for debugging i usually also set -Wextra and -pedantic :)
FRIGN
kori: what is intuitive? As a mathematician, I know what an intuitive proof is. But I don't think you'd call it intuitive.
It's all about the experience
k0ga
I don't want to put this kind of FLAGS in the Makefiles because it makes harder modify the behaviour of the Makefile using the environment
this is the reason why I added build.sh
kori
FRIGN: you start using it, and it starts making sense as you use it, no READMEs or philosophies needed
Evil_Bob
kori: "intuitive" is also based on prior experience the person has
kori
Evil_Bob: less than you'd think
k0ga
Evil_Bob: totally agree
kori
but I can see why you would think that
Evil_Bob
kori: ok, so explain to me why im wrong
FRIGN
kori: no, this is a flaw in the argument. intuition is always based on experience. The suckless software makes it simple because they are simple systems easily understood.
kori
I started this discussion because I share some of the goals suckless has, by the way
FRIGN
once you understand the simple system, everything surrounding it becomes intuitive
and even more, once you understand one program, you understand most of them
for instance, knowing about config.h and stuff
kori
sure, yeah, I'll give you that
FRIGN
kori: It's like you sat a monkey in front of a typewriter
and then color one key with red (for instance, the 'A')
and then you'd say the monkey is being intuitive by only writing AAAAAAA on the paper
but that's not the point
highlighting the way is not what intuition is about. They monkey would never be able to be intuitive unless he understands the system (here, a simple typewriter)
if the monkey made the experience, that writing "banana" on the typewriter yields in him getting such fruit, he would be more familiar with the system
but the suckless way would be for the monkey to modify the typewriter to automatically type "banana" infinitely, yielding in the best possible way :P
stateless
sup
FRIGN
talking of monkeys, hey stateless ;)
Evil_Bob
FRIGN: im having a boner from this conversation
FRIGN
good.
Evil_Bob: stateless: Can you store the backlog?
kori
I'll speak about my views of software currently in a very brief statement: everything is fat and clunky and IT ALL SUCKS
if it's "light", bullsh*t it's light
it's probably built on something fat
FRIGN
kori: like you are built on your mom? :p
Evil_Bob
kori: true, but we and other people are slowing trimming away the GNU fat
like GNU libc -> musl
kori
Evil_Bob: and that's wonderful
FRIGN: ehhh that's not how humans work
I'm actually really excited for scc and all the musl changes and sh*t
FRIGN
kori: we don't really need purists tbh. The purists invented Haskell and haven't come far actually :P
henriqueleng
WTF
FRIGN
I'm a purist myself, but more or less accept the fact that you can't get 100%
but you are better off using a simple 80% than aiming for 100% and getting 20%
kori
FRIGN: the ghc is so fat it's almost the size of ur mom
jk jk
stateless
FRIGN, I keep logs so :P
FRIGN
stateless: okay
kori
even if it's impossible to get 100%, I sure as hell am going to get that 99.99%
Evil_Bob
FRIGN: definitely and even if a project totally fails, think of the knowledge/experience it gained you
kori
that's my goal right there
FRIGN
kori: at which price?
Evil_Bob: Exactly
Evil_Bob
FRIGN: its science bi**h :)
kori
FRIGN: it'll probably cost me a lot of cash :P
FRIGN
kori: we can't afford that at suckless. we only have so many developers
most developers spend most of their time designing software to be "appealing" to the inexperienced
but that's not the right way to go
I don't want to spend my time writing books on Mathematics to make it "appealing" to the inexperienced.
kori
FRIGN: I know. that's why I haven't tried to join suckless
FRIGN
I'd rather expect the inexperienced to study hard and actually get some knowledge themselves.
kori: How experienced are you?
kori
probably enough that if I really wanted to I could do K&R, read the codebase, and contribute some
Evil_Bob
kori: do it
you can even help the "user" experience by improving the documentation
there is no reason to not to contribute
FRIGN
kori: So, in the end, you started this discussion because deep down you are just too lazy to really bring the effort and understand it properly
instead, you search for other reasons why suckless is "wrong" or something, but this is a non sequitur.
kori
I search for reasons as to why suckless is the right path to follow
not the other way around
FRIGN
The best way to learn about the software is to contribute to it
kori: What alternatives do you have?
Are you lurking in many projects' IRC-channels?
kori
FRIGN: GNU, the *BSDs..
I want to understand what makes these projects tick
why do they do things the way they do them
FRIGN
kori: OpenBSD is very close to suckless
but with an even bigger drive to make it applicable for the masses
« prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 next »