logs archiveBotHelp.net / Freenode / #2f30 / 2015 / August / 2 / 3
k0ga
kori: believe me that buttons are not intuitive
kori
there's some bullsh*t involved
k0ga
you had to learn to use them
Evil_Bob
kori: im not an elitist (not sure if thats what you were implying, maybe im sensitive)
kori
Evil_Bob: I'm not
not you
but elitist attitudes in general
k0ga
the thing that is true is that buttons are more discoverable
you see them and you can ask about them
kori
(me looks at FRIGN)
whoops
wrong command
(Action) looks at FRIGN
FRIGN
kori: what do you want?
kori
I want to fight you
FIGHT ME
(I don't)
read the conversation above when you have the time
Evil_Bob
kori: i will fight you with love https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2LHewK4W1g
kori
lmao gunther
Evil_Bob
gunther is our suckless sensual master
FRIGN
kori: I read it, but what do you mean?
kori
FRIGN: that you're usually the one that comes out with elitist comments
but it doesn't matter
I don't care enough to start a discussion about this (and there's nothing to be gained from my side)
FRIGN
well, suckless/2f30 is an elitist group
what do you expect? :P
kori
FRIGN: it's actually less elitist than what I expected
after I started hanging out here
lol
Evil_Bob
we are the suckless upper-class
tm512
kori: maybe you are just desensitized to elitism
kori
tm512: probably the case
but probably not
I was expecting 110% elitism
I got 99%
tm512
this place is full of elitism, hatred, and pessimism
Evil_Bob
kori: is that good or bad?
kori
Evil_Bob: it's good in this specific scenario
but bad in general
honestly suckless could make a big change in "the *nix game"
y'all don't do it because you don't want to
Evil_Bob
:|
kori: stfu and send patches
kori
Evil_Bob: I have my own projects to finish first, sorry
tm512
it's not going to happen because the typical user is not only dismissed, but looked upon with contempt in these circles
Evil_Bob
i think suckless looks "down" on people that dont want to learn
kori
Evil_Bob: the thing is
it's kinda hard to want to learn if the barrier of entry is high
tm512
Evil_Bob: suckless is also seemingly unaware of nuance etc
henriqueleng
Dumb people will never learn anything
Evil_Bob
kori: suckless is not the start barrier for new users or people that dont want to learn
tm512
its like no, this is the only way to do something
we're right, they're wrong
Evil_Bob
tm512: stop bashing, thats not true
kori
tm512: it's actually not true
tm512
well it shows in the contempt you all can have towards stuff
Evil_Bob
like?
actually nvm
kori
and I don't think it's fair to group all of suckless into one hivemind
Evil_Bob
yeah
tm512
like "this is bad, useless, etc" without really considering how other people feel
Evil_Bob
WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKES MAAN
kori
tm512: the only thing I'm mad at is how suckless says "this is bad and useless" instead of "this is bad and useless because of x y and z" where x y and z are calm and understandable explanations
and not a rant
In general.
not all cases.
tm512
but mainly I think suckless is characterized by unhealthy attitudes about software development.
kori
again, can't hivemind
Evil_Bob
kori: after having a calm explanation, it gets cumbersome and the tone changes (like alot of normal people will)
tm512
I'm trying to reverse a lot of the influence that I feel communities like this have had on me.
Evil_Bob
kori: like someone asking about a broken xft patch, backspace problem in st, etc. After awhile you would reply shorter "Just read the FAQ" etc
kori
tm512: same
tm512
I feel like it makes me a less pleasant person
kori
Evil_Bob: how about "This is explained in the FAQ."
tm512
if a large part of my software philosophy is revolving around hating other software
kori
feels warmer tbh
Evil_Bob
kori: some would consider that still rudy
kori
Evil_Bob: but those are overly sensitive people
Evil_Bob
rude
kori
that's a perfect tone of voice
it's not insulting
it's simply poining out a fact
Evil_Bob
kori: yes and suckless is not a helpdesk
kori
it's not a command either
Evil_Bob: ain't saying it is or should be
Evil_Bob
i mostly agree with the tone of suckless, because it wants to have a developer-culture, not endless user whining
kori
but when a situation like that arises, knowing that how you communicate is very influential to the solution of the problem is one of the most valuable lessons I've learnt
Evil_Bob
ofcourse there is the occasional rant from someone, you can just ignore those if you want
tm512
instead it is a collection of developers endlessly whining about software
"BLOAAAAAT"
kori
tm512: no really all software currently invariably sucks
tm512
bullsh*t
kori
but each piece of software sucks in different manners
tm512
how is this a healthy attitude to have
kori
don't you fu*king tell me there's 1 piece of software that doesn't objectively suck because it's simply not true
tm512
it is just going to turn you bitter and unlikable
kori
no
you need to understand why it sucks
and try to build better software
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