logs archiveBotHelp.net / Freenode / #ada / 2015 / July / 30 / 1
Visaoni
Shark8: Ha, I've just seen a couple and I figured I haven't been around that long. :)
wtp
Shark8: Hi, sorry for not replying sooner. Just got back from a meeting, which I'll prob gripe about shortly...
Shark8: I like the fact that roughly half the respondents are from people who have not used the language
and that a good number of them would be open to learning Ada.
I was surprised that some answers were blank though. For instance a person didn't say if they used Ada, but based on the other answers, they clearly did
it would be nice if the survey form could ensure an answer is given. I saw a few responses that probably need to be omitted since they are so incomplete
Visaoni
if there's one thing you can trust people to do
it's to fu*k up a simple form :)
wtp
heheh
Shark8: What groups did you post the survey to?
Shark8
wtp: I could have made all the questions required -- since most of the information querried is essentially metrics I made them optional.
wtp
I saw that you included reddit,com/r/ada and comp.lang.ada
Shark8
I put it on /r/programming, /r/Ada, /r/INTJ, and on my facebook page.
Oh, and comp.lang.Ada
I was tempted to specifically post it on /r/PHP -- given the language's recent adoption of type-ish features... but I think that'd be seen as irrelevant.
wtp
him, I wonder if it would be good to included embedded.com, slashdot.org, and stackoverflow.com
mmm, scratch the slashdot.org idea. The people on that site tend to be childish
Shark8
slashdot and embedded would be cool -- though I have *zero* experience w/ posting to them and rarely visit them.
I've come across some interesting thoughts on slashdot, when I do foray over there... I wouldn't say they're more childish than Reddit.
wtp
O, I usally see more noise whenever Ada is mentioned in the past, but that's just my experience.
I haven't looked at other parts of reddit.com other than the Ada subedit, so I trust your impression.
minor gripe about the meeting I came from: In the meeting, I basically showed a list of bugs found in code
that has been fielded already. They are mainly the usual found in C code (buffer overflows, bad casts, etc).
Anyhow, a couple managers were present
after the meeting one of them jokingly brings up how I've proposed Ada in the past , and the joking expanded with other managers and the usual remark "Isn't that gone?" "O yeah, that was ancient"
I'm just keeping the conversation lighthearted and laughed along, but it dawned on me
that they laugh but money is probably going to need to be spent fixiing many of the bugs I discovered.
It's just sad.
Easily avoidable bugs if it were not for the use of C, and they laugh at something that can avoid that and avoid extra costs.
anyhow, just had to get that off my chest.
Shark8
wtp: I hear you man, it's sad that they're treating the tool like a joke.
You could have pointed them to some recent development like the CubeSat (the only non-NASA/non-AF one that kept functioning was in Ada), Ironsides DNS, etc
wtp
Sure, but it's not going to go any where. The manager that started the joking is someone whom I did point those very examples. It was more, "Oh those are interesting examples, anyhow"
Shark8
wtp: (Sorry about the latency, I'm working on a writeup for Visaoni to explain what I have in mind with the CPAN-for-Ada idea.)
wtp
O yes, a CPAN for Ada would be great. Haven't used it, but the idea is great.
mk270
shark8: do check out opam (for ocaml), maven and a bunch of the other approaches out there
it looked like melpa was good news, too
wtp
It was more ---> I meant "his reaction was along the lines of "
marble_visions
wtp: are the managers described with a humanitarian or engineering background?
wtp
Engineering for sure :P
Here is one remark from that conversation "Ada, that died around 1996"
marble_visions
wtp: do your developers/qa/testing do matlab/whatever models (that translate to C), polyspace / valgrind?
if they autogenerate that C-code, it might be comparative to ada, and better since you don't need to switch to a new lang + tools + automation
wtp
Very few people use Matlab here. More than 90% of the code produced here is by hand.
marble_visions
wow
well, if they write a lot of code, at some point they are going to get overwhelmed
i think that's the point where you have to chip in for ada, since it would be costing theoretically less money
although i've heard here that tooling from adacore is $$$$$$$$$$$
wtp
Believe me, both myself and my brother (We work at the same place), have pitched it several times over the years, given good examples (e.g. Ironsides, Cubesat, etc), and even showed a list of bug reports that could have been avoid
avoided, but it's still "Ada is dead" "Ada?! No one uses that!" "Ada is obsolete" "Ada is not OOP" "Nobody uses Ada"
Yet, one of our main products is an OS that is written in Ada, but almost all the drivers have been converted to C or all new development is in C and just an Ada binding is created to let the core work with it.
Several of the bugs I found are in the C drivers.
I found 1 bug in one of the Ada code, but it was because the person used the 'Size attribute on the wrong item.
marble_visions
"Ada?! Nothing uses that!" -- "Except one of our main products." .... pure gold.
wtp
yep.
And they won't be changing that anytime soon from what I hear. But I think it's a dead end product really.
That's just my opinion. Chances are it will still kick around for years to come but not evolve.
ANd like I said, all new work is done in C with an Ada binding when necessary.
I haven't even mentioned the C in Ada portions :P
Anyhow, I've taking up too much of the chat with my griping.
marble_visions
it's always good to know what others are facing in the industry
Shark8
marble_visions: I agree; it is good to know what the attitudes are.
wtp: Maybe rewriting one of the troublesome modules in Ada would help sell your pitch. (I assume you have a compiler for the OS-product.)
wtp
Shark8: Yes, there is an Ada compiler. I have thought about rewriting C code in the past, but I always decide not too since I would basically be donating my time, which I have little of, and I rather spend my time on my Ada side project.
Maybe I can do a partial conversion to a file just to illustrate the point.
Shark8
wtp: Partial conversion might work.
wtp: Another thing to do might be to do your work in Ada, and submit it like that... unless they have a "you will use X" directive.
wtp
Actually I am not one of the developers of the OS product. They needed someone to do a code review and I was picked.
So, if I were to submit code in Ada, I don't think that will be viewed very well among the managers.
The products I am currently working on are in C and C++, but an Ada compiler is not available. My brother and I have been trying to get approval for one but there are road blocks, especially the usual "We don't have Ada programmers"
Sometimes when I get that type of response, I repyl "We are engineers, and we are always expected to learn, so why can't people learn Ada?"
Often the response is "but people may not want to learn"
Shark8
wtp: Hm, I see... what are the big problems that are plaguing your project?
wtp
The ones I'm on now, nothing major. The stuff is running. But some of the bugs that could have been avoided with Ada, got fixed, so thinks are okay from managements point of view.
Which doesn't help. Yes we eventually did it, but it sure would have been nice to avoid some of the extra effort.
THat's not to imply a substantial savings, but savings nonetheless. What would be interesting if all those "Extra" efforts were aggregated together to see the total. I don't know how to go about getting that info.
It's almost like a broken record: "O darn we have bug, gotta fix it".....dum de dum de dum...."Customer reported another bug, gotta fix that"....etc
And code reviews are not helpful. Most people don't spend the necessary time doing it.
Shark8
Hm, that's kinda nice. -- The pals project I was on where we were doing new development [rather than maintenance] on was PHP and dealt w/ medical/insurance records... it was being grown rather than designed, which led to combination bug-fix/new-features and inconsistent DB-states [esp. w/ by-hand SQL]... something like Ada where I could leverage the type-system to isolate things and ensure the DB was always consistant would have been a godsend.
wtp
But the current "solution" is the Coverity static analyzer.
Which I agree is in the right direction.
Unfortunately, most people are not using it.
marble_visions
iirc coverity supports ada as well
wtp
Seriously!?
I didn't know that.
The company has picked Polyspace for Ada code.
marble_visions
nope, it doesn't. yep, polyspace does
just checked
wtp
okay
I remember the meeting with the engineer spear heading the adoption of Coverity. Turns out he's been telling everyone, "it's the best static analyzer currently". I asked him, "so does it guaranteed no runtime exceptions?"
his response was "No. But it is the best". And I asked "Then what do you mean it's the best? Relative to what?"
"Oh, well it's the best because it has the least amount of false positives"
Lucretia
wtp: where do you work and what's your Ada project?
wtp
Sorry, I rather not say because I want to avoid any chance of someone at work finding out.
about me griping.
Lucretia
:D
fairymuff
wtp
And the OS is not public as far as I know.
Lucretia
and the side project?
Shark8
Lucretia: How's the generic 2D/3D coming along?
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